BabelColor ®
Color Measurement and Analysis

Mac OS COMPATIBILITY

Compatibility relative to:

Compatibility requirements:

Here are the minimal requirements in terms of BabelColor software versions and in terms of Mac OS versions: Minimal Mac OS requirements for CT&A 6.x and PatchTool 7.x: Mac OS X 10.10.5 (Yosemite). Older versions of BabelColor software may be compatible with older versions of the Mac OS; you will get this information in the “System requirements” section of the Help manual dedicated to the specific CT&A or PatchTool version. Minimal versions for macOS 10.15 Catalina: CT&A 5.4.5 and PatchTool 6.6.5 in 64 bit packages. Minimal versions for macOS 11 Big Sur: CT&A 6.0.5 and PatchTool 7.1.1.

Compatibility concerns:

Click on any line of the following list to go directly to the section of interest. macOS compatibility: macOS 10 to macOS 14; ARM processor; OpenGL in PatchTool; 64 bit; notarization. macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper settings (Security & Privacy control panel) need to be changed with the “Terminal” before download! I get a message that CT&A or PatchTool is from an "unidentified developer" I updated the Mac OS and I am asked to install Java SE 6 runtime

macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper settings (Security & Privacy control panel) need to be changed with the “Terminal”

before download!

This section is applicable to: CT&A: Version 5.0 or OLDER packaged in a ZIP file (This section does not apply to CT&A 5.0 packaged in a disk image file, i.e. *.dmg) PatchTool: Version 5.0 or OLDER (This section does not apply to PatchTool 5.1) If you are using macOS Sierra (10.12), the Gatekeeper settings (Security & Privacy control panel) may need to be changed with the "Terminal" BEFORE download! Before Sierra (macOS 10.12), it was possible to allow applications downloaded from “unidentified developers” simply by selecting the “Anywhere” radio button in the Security & Privacy control panel. This button no longer appears by default when Sierra is installed but it is possible to make it visible again with a “Terminal” command. A solution is shown below but lets first see why this is a problem. The problem: In Sierra, even if you allow an application from an unidentified developer to be opened (as shown in the screenshots of METHOD-1 of the next section below), Sierra will still not trust the application and will separate the main app from the other files in the application folder, placing it at a random location. For the user, the main app still appears to be located in the application folder, but if that app is programmed to use files located in the application folder, it will not find them. The consequences will vary depending on each software; errors or crash will result in many cases. For CT&A, you will see a fatal error on program launch: “(EM-19) CT&A cannot open the ColorDecks database…” For PatchTool, the program will start. However, it will not find its Help manual, the sample files in the “File/Open Sample Files” menu, the default CMYK profiles, and the display calibration files for the i1Display Pro. Note: This problem will not happen if the program was downloaded before upgrading to Sierra. You can also copy the program from another local computer (i.e. not via Internet) on which the application is working. The solution: 1. Make the “Anywhere” button appear by disabling Gatekeeper. o Open the “Terminal” (located in the “Utilities” folder of the Mac “Application” folder). o In the Terminal, type: sudo spctl --master-disable followed by the Enter key. You will then need to enter your account password to complete the command. o You can check that the "Anywhere" button appears and is selected in the Security & Privacy control panel (see the control panel screenshot in the next section below). 2. Download CT&A or PatchTool and install them by placing the BabelColor application folder at its desired location (usually in the Mac Applications folder). IMPORTANT: Download should always be done AFTER disabling Gatekeeper. Open the program with a double-click and check if it starts correctly. 3. Change the the Security & Privacy setting OR “re-enable” Gatekeeper. o You can decide to keep the “Anywhere” button visible and still select a more secure setting. You will need to enter your account password in order to change the control panel setting. o You can also return to the default Gatekeeper appearance, with the “Anywhere” button invisible and not selected, by going again in the “Terminal” and typing: sudo spctl --master-enable followed by the Enter key. You can check that the "Anywhere" button is no longer visible in the Security & Privacy control panel (you may need to first close the System Preferences and re-open them to see the change). If the solution fails: We have seen cases where doing the above did not solve the problem. In other words, the app still ends up in quarantine even if the user authorizes it. Here is a workaround: After doing Step-2 above, where you place the BabelColor application folder at its desired location: o Get the downloaded ZIP archive out of the Trash and place it on your Desktop. o Re-expand the archive on your Desktop. o From the BabelColor application folder on your Desktop, COPY ONLY the app and PASTE it to the previously installed BabelColor application folder (usually in the Mac Applications folder). o Open the program from where you just pasted it with a double-click. You can trash the expanded BabelColor application folder on your Desktop but we strongly recommend keeping the ZIP archive in order to reinstall the program at a later time. You should also do an external backup of the archive in case of a computer failure. Note: If you decide to keep the "Anywhere" button visible, you should be aware that macOS Sierra will nonetheless automatically change the setting to "App Store and identified developer" after 30 days. Here are links to Web pages which discuss this issue as well as other Sierra related changes: https://www.tekrevue.com/tip/gatekeeper-macos-sierra/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/macos-10-12-sierra-the-ars-technica-review/6/#h1

I get a message that CT&A or PatchTool is from an "unidentified developer"

This section is applicable to: CT&A: Version 5.0 or OLDER packaged in a ZIP file (This section does not apply to CT&A 5.0 packaged in a disk image file, i.e. *.dmg) PatchTool: Version 5.0 or OLDER (This section does not apply to PatchTool 5.1) Note: If you are using macOS Sierra (10.12), please also read the section just above (macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper settings…). You may receive the following message the first time you launch CT&A or PatchTool after downloading the program: Such a message appears for programs not downloaded from the Apple App Store, or for programs created by developers which did not pay to be "identified" by Apple. Here are two methods to open the programs. METHOD-1 will grant permission to a single application while METHOD-2 will grant permission to ALL applications (until reversed). METHOD-1 (Single application permission): Press the "ctrl" key and click on the CT&A or PatchTool icon OR do a right-click on the CT&A or PatchTool icon. Select "Open" in the popup menu. You will get the following message asking if you are sure you want to open the application. Check that the file was downloaded from "www.babelcolor.com" and click on the "Open" button. Afterwards, when you open the application, you will not be asked for another authorization until you download and reinstall the program. METHOD-2 (Change of System Preferences): To launch CT&A or PatchTool the first time after you download the program, go in the "Security & Privacy" settings of your "System Preferences". The security settings dialog is shown below. Select the radio button corresponding to "Allow applications downloaded from: Anywhere." You may need to first unlock the dialog by entering your account password. You should leave this dialog open for the next step. You can now start CT&A or PatchTool. You will see the following message the first time you start the program. Check that the file was downloaded from "www.babelcolor.com" and click on the "Open" button. Once the program is launched, you can change the security setting back to where it was and close the security dialog. You will not be asked for another authorization until you download and reinstall CT&A or PatchTool.

I updated the Mac OS and I am asked to install Java SE 6 runtime

After updating your Mac OS, you may receive a generic message (i.e. not specific to one application in particular) that you need to install the "legacy Java SE 6 runtime". You may also receive this message, with “PatchTool” specifically mentioned as the application, when you start PatchTool's Display-Check or Display-Reader, or when you select the DTP94 instrument in these tools. IMPORTANT: On macOS Sierra (10.12) PatchTool will quit when the message is shown. If you intend to use the DTP94, you should install the Java SE 6 runtime before restarting PatchTool. If you want to use another instrument in Display-Check or Display-Reader without installing the Java SE runtime, you should first open and close the Patch-Reader tool; this will change the preference to an i1Pro the next time you open Display-Check or Display-Reader. Note: PatchTool is not programmed using Java code. However, it looks like the DTP94 library requires it. You can download Java for OS X 2015-001 (or a more recent version) from: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1572 Additional information: You can get more information on your Java setup in the "Java Control Panel.” Depending on your OS version, this panel is opened from the System Preferences or from the "Java Preferences" program located in the Mac Applications/Utilities folder. If the install from these control panels fails, download and install Java from the link above. This issue, which was seen with many programs, such as some of the applications of the Adobe CS4 and CS6 suites, is discussed in this Apple forum thread: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4136010?
Lion (10.7) Mountain Lion (10.8) Mavericks (10.9) Yosemite (10.10) El Capitan (10.11) Sierra (10.12) High Sierra (10.13) Mojave (10.14) Catalina (10.15) Big Sur (11.6) Monterey (12.3) -
Message text: "CT&A" can't be opened because it is from an unidentified developer.
Message text: "PatchTool" can't be opened because it is from an unidentified developer.
Message text (OS X version): To open "PatchTool," you need a Java SE 6 runtime. Would you like to install one now?
Message text (macOS Sierra version): To open "PatchTool" you need to install the legacy Java SE 6 runtime. Click "More Info…" to visit the legacy Java SE 6 download website.

macOS compatibility: macOS 10 to macOS 14; ARM processor; OpenGL in PatchTool; 64 bit; notarization.

Current status (November 1, 2023) macOS 12 to macOS 14 compatibility: At the date shown above we are not aware of issues with CT&A V-6.0.7 and PatchTool V-7.1.4 with these OS on Intel based Macs. We also are not aware of issues with the Rosetta 2 emulator of ARM M1 and M2 based Macs. Please read the text below relative to the ARM processor transition and OpenGL support. macOS 11.6 Big Sur compatibility: At the date shown above we are not aware of issues with CT&A V-6.0.6 and PatchTool V-7.1.2 with this OS on Intel based Macs. macOS 10.15 Catalina support: At the date shown above, we have found no issues using CT&A V-5.5.1 and V-6.0+ and PatchTool V-6.6.7 and V-7.1+ with this OS. ARM processor transition: Apple announced in June 2020 that it was transitioning its macOS hardware from Intel based processors to Apple-designed ARM processors. It was mentioned that many current Intel based computers would still be supported by future macOS versions, such as macOS Big Sur, and some new Apple computers may even be Intel based. Please note that, at this time, BabelColor does not commit to support the ARM platform or any macOS update starting with Big Sur even though we have corrected issues specifically related to Big Sur in past CT&A and PatchTool releases. This status may change. So far, we have received only positive feedback from customers who use BabelColor software on a Mac ARM computer via Apple Rosetta 2 translator software. OpenGL support: The universally used OpenGL graphics rendering libraries are required by PatchTool. In the past, Apple had announced that OpenGL would be supported but no longer maintained starting with macOS Mojave; more recently they announced that OpenGL is deprecated, i.e. allowed but not recommended, in macOS 10.15 Catalina. As a replacement, they propose the Apple developed “Metal” graphics renderer libraries. Please note that there is currently no plan for PatchTool to support Apple’s Metal renderer and if Apple completely removes OpenGL support in future OS versions, PatchTool may become incompatible. 64 bit support: The dialogs shown below have started to appear with the fourth release of macOS High Sierra (10.13.4) the first time you open 32 bit versions of CT&A or PatchTool, after installing the programs. In macOS Mojave, the successor to High Sierra, the alert appears again once every 30 days when launching the app. These dialogs will not appear if you open 64 bit versions of the programs. When you see this dialog, click on the “Learn More…” button to read what Apple has to say about this. As Apple mentions in the September 24, 2018 edition of their support page, “… macOS Mojave is the last version of macOS to run 32-bit apps.” CT&A 5.4.5 and PatchTool 6.6.5 for macOS are the last versions offered in both 32 bit and 64 bit packages. Note: The 64 bit macOS versions of BabelColor software do not support instruments for which 64 bit libraries/Frameworks are not available (for more info: CT&A-RGBvsRGB; CT&A-Munsell-tools; CT&A-Spectral-tools; PatchTool). Notarization and macOS 10.15+ support: In addition to the 64 bit requirement Apple has new notarization requirements which apply to some software installed on macOS 10.14.5 and to all software installed on macOS 10.15 Catalina. Notarization imposes minimum compiler versions for the code and for the external libraries used by the program, such as Frameworks used to interface instruments. The notarization process also requires that the install files be submitted for approval to Apple before they are distributed. Apple checks for any non-compliant content as well as abnormal code behavior; it then records (i.e. notarizes) the result when everything is OK. At this time, CT&A V-5.5.0/V-6.x 64 bit for Mac and PatchTool V-6.6.5/7.x 64 bit for Mac pass the notarization requirements. Please note that while a software may meet the notarization requirements, this does not mean that is is fully compatible with a given OS.
Dialogs shown when 32 bit versions of CT&A and PatchTool are opened on a recent 64 bit macOS computer.
About BabelColor / Contact / Legal info / Privacy policy Copyright © 2024 The BabelColor Company

No longer compatible!

See status below.

Ventura (13) Sonoma (14)
BabelColor ®

Mac OS COMPATIBILITY

Compatibility relative to:

Compatibility requirements:

Here are the minimal requirements in terms of BabelColor software versions and in terms of Mac OS versions: Minimal Mac OS requirements for CT&A 6.x and PatchTool 7.x: Mac OS X 10.10.5 (Yosemite). Older versions of BabelColor software may be compatible with older versions of the Mac OS; you will get this information in the “System requirements” section of the Help manual dedicated to the specific CT&A or PatchTool version. Minimal versions for macOS 10.15 Catalina: CT&A 5.4.5 and PatchTool 6.6.5 in 64 bit packages. Minimal versions for macOS 11 Big Sur: CT&A 6.0.5 and PatchTool 7.1.1.

Compatibility concerns:

Click on any line of the following list to go directly to the section of interest. macOS compatibility: macOS 10 to macOS 14; ARM processor; OpenGL in PatchTool; 64 bit; notarization. macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper settings (Security & Privacy control panel) need to be changed with the “Terminal” before download! I get a message that CT&A or PatchTool is from an "unidentified developer" I updated the Mac OS and I am asked to install Java SE 6 runtime

macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper

settings (Security & Privacy control

panel) need to be changed with the

“Terminal” before download!

This section is applicable to: CT&A: Version 5.0 or OLDER packaged in a ZIP file (This section does not apply to CT&A 5.0 packaged in a disk image file, i.e. *.dmg) PatchTool: Version 5.0 or OLDER (This section does not apply to PatchTool 5.1) If you are using macOS Sierra (10.12), the Gatekeeper settings (Security & Privacy control panel) may need to be changed with the "Terminal" BEFORE download! Before Sierra (macOS 10.12), it was possible to allow applications downloaded from “unidentified developers” simply by selecting the “Anywhere” radio button in the Security & Privacy control panel. This button no longer appears by default when Sierra is installed but it is possible to make it visible again with a “Terminal” command. A solution is shown below but lets first see why this is a problem. The problem: In Sierra, even if you allow an application from an unidentified developer to be opened (as shown in the screenshots of METHOD-1 of the next section below), Sierra will still not trust the application and will separate the main app from the other files in the application folder, placing it at a random location. For the user, the main app still appears to be located in the application folder, but if that app is programmed to use files located in the application folder, it will not find them. The consequences will vary depending on each software; errors or crash will result in many cases. For CT&A, you will see a fatal error on program launch: “(EM-19) CT&A cannot open the ColorDecks database…” For PatchTool, the program will start. However, it will not find its Help manual, the sample files in the “File/Open Sample Files” menu, the default CMYK profiles, and the display calibration files for the i1Display Pro. Note: This problem will not happen if the program was downloaded before upgrading to Sierra. You can also copy the program from another local computer (i.e. not via Internet) on which the application is working. The solution: 1. Make the “Anywhere” button appear by disabling Gatekeeper. o Open the “Terminal” (located in the “Utilities” folder of the Mac “Application” folder). o In the Terminal, type: sudo spctl --master-disable followed by the Enter key. You will then need to enter your account password to complete the command. o You can check that the "Anywhere" button appears and is selected in the Security & Privacy control panel (see the control panel screenshot in the next section below). 2. Download CT&A or PatchTool and install them by placing the BabelColor application folder at its desired location (usually in the Mac Applications folder). IMPORTANT: Download should always be done AFTER disabling Gatekeeper. Open the program with a double-click and check if it starts correctly. 3. Change the the Security & Privacy setting OR “re- enable” Gatekeeper. o You can decide to keep the “Anywhere” button visible and still select a more secure setting. You will need to enter your account password in order to change the control panel setting. o You can also return to the default Gatekeeper appearance, with the “Anywhere” button invisible and not selected, by going again in the “Terminal” and typing: sudo spctl --master-enable followed by the Enter key. You can check that the "Anywhere" button is no longer visible in the Security & Privacy control panel (you may need to first close the System Preferences and re-open them to see the change). If the solution fails: We have seen cases where doing the above did not solve the problem. In other words, the app still ends up in quarantine even if the user authorizes it. Here is a workaround: After doing Step-2 above, where you place the BabelColor application folder at its desired location: o Get the downloaded ZIP archive out of the Trash and place it on your Desktop. o Re-expand the archive on your Desktop. o From the BabelColor application folder on your Desktop, COPY ONLY the app and PASTE it to the previously installed BabelColor application folder (usually in the Mac Applications folder). o Open the program from where you just pasted it with a double-click. You can trash the expanded BabelColor application folder on your Desktop but we strongly recommend keeping the ZIP archive in order to reinstall the program at a later time. You should also do an external backup of the archive in case of a computer failure. Note: If you decide to keep the "Anywhere" button visible, you should be aware that macOS Sierra will nonetheless automatically change the setting to "App Store and identified developer" after 30 days. Here are links to Web pages which discuss this issue as well as other Sierra related changes: https://www.tekrevue.com/tip/gatekeeper-macos- sierra/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/macos-10-12- sierra-the-ars-technica-review/6/#h1

I get a message that CT&A or

PatchTool is from an "unidentified

developer"

This section is applicable to: CT&A: Version 5.0 or OLDER packaged in a ZIP file (This section does not apply to CT&A 5.0 packaged in a disk image file, i.e. *.dmg) PatchTool: Version 5.0 or OLDER (This section does not apply to PatchTool 5.1) Note: If you are using macOS Sierra (10.12), please also read the section just above (macOS Sierra: The Gatekeeper settings…). You may receive the following message the first time you launch CT&A or PatchTool after downloading the program: Such a message appears for programs not downloaded from the Apple App Store, or for programs created by developers which did not pay to be "identified" by Apple. Here are two methods to open the programs. METHOD-1 will grant permission to a single application while METHOD-2 will grant permission to ALL applications (until reversed). METHOD-1 (Single application permission): Press the "ctrl" key and click on the CT&A or PatchTool icon OR do a right-click on the CT&A or PatchTool icon. Select "Open" in the popup menu. You will get the following message asking if you are sure you want to open the application. Check that the file was downloaded from "www.babelcolor.com" and click on the "Open" button. Afterwards, when you open the application, you will not be asked for another authorization until you download and reinstall the program. METHOD-2 (Change of System Preferences): To launch CT&A or PatchTool the first time after you download the program, go in the "Security & Privacy" settings of your "System Preferences". The security settings dialog is shown below. Select the radio button corresponding to "Allow applications downloaded from: Anywhere." You may need to first unlock the dialog by entering your account password. You should leave this dialog open for the next step. You can now start CT&A or PatchTool. You will see the following message the first time you start the program. Check that the file was downloaded from "www.babelcolor.com" and click on the "Open" button. Once the program is launched, you can change the security setting back to where it was and close the security dialog. You will not be asked for another authorization until you download and reinstall CT&A or PatchTool.

I updated the Mac OS and I am asked

to install Java SE 6 runtime

After updating your Mac OS, you may receive a generic message (i.e. not specific to one application in particular) that you need to install the "legacy Java SE 6 runtime". You may also receive this message, with “PatchTool” specifically mentioned as the application, when you start PatchTool's Display-Check or Display-Reader, or when you select the DTP94 instrument in these tools. IMPORTANT: On macOS Sierra (10.12) PatchTool will quit when the message is shown. If you intend to use the DTP94, you should install the Java SE 6 runtime before restarting PatchTool. If you want to use another instrument in Display-Check or Display-Reader without installing the Java SE runtime, you should first open and close the Patch-Reader tool; this will change the preference to an i1Pro the next time you open Display- Check or Display-Reader. Note: PatchTool is not programmed using Java code. However, it looks like the DTP94 library requires it. You can download Java for OS X 2015-001 (or a more recent version) from: http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1572 Additional information: You can get more information on your Java setup in the "Java Control Panel.” Depending on your OS version, this panel is opened from the System Preferences or from the "Java Preferences" program located in the Mac Applications/Utilities folder. If the install from these control panels fails, download and install Java from the link above. This issue, which was seen with many programs, such as some of the applications of the Adobe CS4 and CS6 suites, is discussed in this Apple forum thread: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4136010?
Lion (10.7) Mountain Lion (10.8) Mavericks (10.9) Yosemite (10.10) El Capitan (10.11) Sierra (10.12) High Sierra (10.13) Mojave (10.14) Catalina (10.15) Big Sur (11.6) Monterey (12.3)
(OS X version)
(macOS Sierra version)

macOS compatibility: macOS 10 to

macOS 14; ARM processor; OpenGL in

PatchTool; 64 bit; notarization.

Current status (November 1, 2023) macOS 12 to macOS 14 compatibility: At the date shown above we are not aware of issues with CT&A V- 6.0.7 and PatchTool V-7.1.4 with these OS on Intel based Macs. We also are not aware of issues with the Rosetta 2 emulator of ARM M1 and M2 based Macs. Please read the text below relative to the ARM processor transition and OpenGL support. macOS 11.6 Big Sur compatibility: At the date shown above we are not aware of issues with CT&A V-6.0.6 and PatchTool V-7.1.2 with this OS on Intel based Macs. macOS 10.15 Catalina support: At the date shown above, we have found no issues using CT&A V-5.5.1 and V- 6.0+ and PatchTool V-6.6.7 and V-7.1+ with this OS. ARM processor transition: Apple announced in June 2020 that it was transitioning its macOS hardware from Intel based processors to Apple-designed ARM processors. It was mentioned that many current Intel based computers would still be supported by future macOS versions, such as macOS Big Sur, and some new Apple computers may even be Intel based. Please note that, at this time, BabelColor does not commit to support the ARM platform or any macOS update starting with Big Sur even though we have corrected issues specifically related to Big Sur in past CT&A and PatchTool releases. This status may change. So far, we have received only positive feedback from customers who use BabelColor software on a Mac ARM computer via Apple Rosetta 2 translator software. OpenGL support: The universally used OpenGL graphics rendering libraries are required by PatchTool. In the past, Apple had announced that OpenGL would be supported but no longer maintained starting with macOS Mojave; more recently they announced that OpenGL is deprecated, i.e. allowed but not recommended, in macOS 10.15 Catalina. As a replacement, they propose the Apple developed “Metal” graphics renderer libraries. Please note that there is currently no plan for PatchTool to support Apple’s Metal renderer and if Apple completely removes OpenGL support in future OS versions, PatchTool may become incompatible. 64 bit support: The dialogs shown below have started to appear with the fourth release of macOS High Sierra (10.13.4) the first time you open 32 bit versions of CT&A or PatchTool, after installing the programs. In macOS Mojave, the successor to High Sierra, the alert appears again once every 30 days when launching the app. These dialogs will not appear if you open 64 bit versions of the programs. When you see this dialog, click on the “Learn More…” button to read what Apple has to say about this. As Apple mentions in the September 24, 2018 edition of their support page, “… macOS Mojave is the last version of macOS to run 32-bit apps.” CT&A 5.4.5 and PatchTool 6.6.5 for macOS are the last versions offered in both 32 bit and 64 bit packages. Note: The 64 bit macOS versions of BabelColor software do not support instruments for which 64 bit libraries/Frameworks are not available (for more info: CT&A-RGBvsRGB; CT&A-Munsell-tools; CT&A-Spectral- tools; PatchTool). Notarization and macOS 10.15+ support: In addition to the 64 bit requirement Apple has new notarization requirements which apply to some software installed on macOS 10.14.5 and to all software installed on macOS 10.15 Catalina. Notarization imposes minimum compiler versions for the code and for the external libraries used by the program, such as Frameworks used to interface instruments. The notarization process also requires that the install files be submitted for approval to Apple before they are distributed. Apple checks for any non-compliant content as well as abnormal code behavior; it then records (i.e. notarizes) the result when everything is OK. At this time, CT&A V-5.5.0/V-6.x 64 bit for Mac and PatchTool V-6.6.5/7.x 64 bit for Mac pass the notarization requirements. Please note that while a software may meet the notarization requirements, this does not mean that is is fully compatible with a given OS.
Dialogs shown when 32 bit versions of CT&A and PatchTool are opened on a recent 64 bit macOS computer.
About BabelColor / Contact us - Legal info - Privacy policy Copyright © 2024 The BabelColor Company

No longer compatible!

See status below.

Ventura (13) Sonoma (14)